May 22, 2023
How do fire and life safetyprofessionals tackle challenges like sustainability, energy storagesystems, and technology becoming obsolete? These topics and moreare discussed in episode 70 of Fire Code Tech. Robert Solomon P.E.shares tremendous insight from his 30+ years at NFPA and 40 yearsin fire protection.
00:07.11
firecodetech
Well Robert thank you for coming onthe fire code tech podcast we're happy to have youtoday.
00:13.10
robert solomon
Well thank you very much for havingme I appreciate the opportunity to talk with you.
00:18.15
firecodetech
Awesome! So how I usually get thesethings started to give the listeners some context and also for myown listening pleasure is usually asking about how you found fireand life safety How you found the field.
00:32.93
robert solomon
So where I grew up. Um I grew up ina rural area in Western Pennsylvania and I think I was like maybelike a lot of little kids right? The fire truckcks you know pureactually going by. Would you know there's some level of excitementor you'd go to the. Annual ah fire department carnival in the localtowns or whatever that were run by the fire departments and I Ikind of got an interest I think from that you know childhood ahpiece or kind of experience. When I was 15 I actually learned aboutthe small town that I lived near they actually had a juniorvolunteer fire department program and I found out about that and umI joined that literally when I was fifteen years old so at 15right? You can you can like wash equipment and fire trucks. Youknow you're not going to go to fires or car accidents or anythingbut I immediately kind of liked the firefighting aspect. A whilelater maybe a year later than two of the members who were gettingtheir far science degrees at a community college. They came to themuddy night meeting and they have this photocoppied piece of paperabout this fire protection engineering program at University OfMaryland I thought like.
01:54.96
robert solomon
Sounds interesting. What whatexactly does this mean and what is it so I made a trip toUniversity Of Maryland ah that year I was in tenth grade then um Imet Dr Brian Wright who is one of the more famous folks fromOklahoma. And he talked about the program and in I think in tenthgrade he in tenth grade I think I was 99% sure I wanted to figureout how I could go to University Of Maryland to to go through thatprogram. So um I was just blessed to kind of. Have all these thingsthat kind of came together and that were kind of connected. Um Iliked the farfighting part but I always had in the back my mind Iwanted to be an engineer. My father was an engineer and ah, that'skind of how how it all started for me when I was when I was fifteenyears old so and been been doing it ever since which is a long timefor by age. So yeah.
02:48.33
firecodetech
That's awesome. That's interestingto hear that seems like a common thread of involvement with thefire service and then ah, a proclivity for math and science or afamily member that is related to engineering So that's good tohear. Well.
03:00.00
robert solomon
Um, yeah, and for sure.
03:04.26
firecodetech
Ah, so for a bit more of context.Um, would you mind explaining a couple more of the roles thatyou've held in during your career.
03:13.75
robert solomon
Sure so the first kind of job I hadin the fire protection engineering world. It was a summer internjob with the department of veterans affairs. It was the veteransadministration back then but I had a summer internship inWashington Dc at the v a central office. And of course the e a doeshospitals and nursing homes. So I learned a lot about the nfk lifesafety code and the fire safety evaluation system um is a part ofthat summer job working with the really you know smart fpes thatwere there. The supervisor that headed up that group bill Brooks.Um, one of the other things he did for me that summer is hearranged for me to go visit with fire protection engineers andother federal agencies Army Corps of Engineers Naval Sea systemscommand navfac all these other federal agencies department oftransportation. And I got a chance to see what they did in this FpeRole so I really didn't realize at the time like how much how muchI was to absorb from kind of having that opportunity to spend acouple hours with them so that was kind of my first intern joband.
04:32.84
robert solomon
There go the allergies. Ah, and thenthat was you know between junior and senior years and then I hadkind of gravitated towards this idea of working for navalfacilities engineering command nav fact that was my first job thenafter graduation in 1982 I was at the southern division down inCharleston South Carolina and I think what appealed to me aboutthat is is when you work on military projects and and you soundslike you're familiar with this the the military builds everythingand sometimes you only build 1 or 2 of those things ever in thehistory of. Of of building construction. So I had ah four greatyears working at at navfa down in ah Charleston again. Um thesupervisor of that was a gentleman named Dennis Davis I worked withother ah great fpes Les Engels Jim Crawford and and and these werepeople that really helped morph me and guide me and it's like Ialways said to people in college you get your degree and then youget your education when you get your first real job so they reallytaught me kind of that connection between the theory and what maybeyou learned in school and then how that kind of applies to. Realworld building design and construction. so so I said I had fourfour great years at navfac and I kind of learned that I learned howto travel I'd never been an airplane till I was 21 years old thenall of a sudden I'm on an airplane every other week goingto.
06:02.51
robert solomon
You know somewhere on a project inFlorida or Texas or New Mexico um but again just a fascinating job.You know I really liked everything about that. Definitely yeahyeah, yeah.
06:14.49
firecodetech
And that's awesome. Yeah I love thatcomplexity piece of the the dod and you know that's it's veryalluring for multiple disciplines of engineer because of just thetype of systems and the type of work I think for engineersI.
06:21.10
robert solomon
The.
06:33.22
firecodetech
Think it takes a different breed ofarchitect when you get into a lot of military work. But forengineers it seems if you like the detail and you like thecomplexity that it's very compelling So that's cool to hear aboutthat origin story. So.
06:44.81
robert solomon
Right? And yeah, yeah, yeah forsure. Yeah, so says I had I had that period that time down atnavfac and then in ah, 1986 I knew there were some openings at Npaand I think I'd mentioned right when I was in the was in the firedepartment back in Pennsylvania when I was 15 or 16 they had theythis set of these books and I didn't know what they were was thisnfpa thing and um I remember looking at them when I'm 16 like whatwhat on earth are these things you know and. What is this nfpa andand one of the things I didn't mention is I got a studentmembership in nfpa when I was 17 so that you learn about it. Youknow going through the program at University Of Maryland and it wasalways in the back of my mind that sounds like a pretty interestingplace to maybe work. So. And 86 I knew there were some ah openingsup there and I you know back then you had to write a letter and Iwrote the letter. It's like here's my resume and they actuallycontacted me to come up for an interview I thought like oh oh goshyou know it was like ah okay, what I'm Boston don't know anythingabout Boston. It's this big city I'm not used to big cities. Cameup interview went well I was offered a position and so I went to Ileft of naffac and went to work at Nfpa back in July of 87 and atthe time my goal was like I want to work here for four or fiveyears to learn about how these codes are developed andmade.
08:11.87
robert solomon
And I wanted to go I figured I I godo something else I go work for a consultant or maybe go back tosome federal agency but the the opportunities that I got at nfpawere were nonstop. Um, you know it's like anything sometimes itfalls in your lap. Sometimes you have to go looking for itsometimes sometimes you have to kind of create the opportunity andthirty forty years later it's like oh I've had a good run here.It's time for me to go to to something else. So my my 5 year planall of a sudden morphed into a a 34 year plan and. Like I said itwas a it. It still is. It's ah it's a privilege to work at Nfpa. Itis a it's a great organization. Um I I never I never had I wasnever bored there. There was always something new around the cornerand. Things I worked on whether you know I think what I enjoyed themost obviously is working directly with the technical committeesbut I was involved in some of the you know big fire investigationprograms and report writing um was always usually involved on youknow some. National international catastrophe right? I was managingthe group um that usually would have involvement with that whetherit was the far code or the building code or the life safety codeaspect but it it was just it was just like it.
09:38.73
robert solomon
It it. It was just an unbelievableexperience the whole time I was there I was working you know someof the people your age I don't know if you know names like ChetShermer or the actual Rolf Jensen um you know these are the peoplethat really I think really kind of put our profession on the mapput fire protection engineering on the Map. And I would be sittingin meetings with these guys and they'd be asking me my opinion I'mlike you know I don't I guess the word would be almost likeStarstruck initially, it's like you're asking me what I think andum so it it was just it was just like it was. It. It was just anunbelievable experience the the whole time I was there. But I saidyou know whether it was the the new committee projects. Um the fireinvestigation work. The research work. Um, you know, ah it was allof those things. Just really. Ah, it gave me opportunities I neverthought in 1000000 years I would have so like it was you know to towork somewhere for 34 Years that's pretty unusual now. But I thinkyou know I'm in the generation that that was maybe a little bitmore common than it is today. So my nfpa time was was just It wasawesome is the only way I could describe it.
10:53.25
firecodetech
That's incredible that sounds socool to be in that era of just some of the imminent forces now inthe industry just you know come into fruition. That's really coolto hear about and lots of good nuggets in there that I.
11:00.33
robert solomon
Um.
11:01.88
robert solomon
Move.
11:11.16
firecodetech
Im sure we could spend ah a wholeconversation on but 1 that strikes me as one I wanted to ask youabout is that fire investigations piece I know that as fire andlife safety professionals. You know, a lot of what we do is basedon. Um.
11:13.53
robert solomon
Ah, answer sure.
11:29.77
firecodetech
Retroactively looking at how thingswent wrong and trying to correct those in the code cycles. But howdoes that experience at Nfba kind of color your context for how youlook at design. Um, I know that's kind of a ah broad question. Butum, I'd like to hear your answer on that.
11:51.42
robert solomon
Yeah, so so I think I think I thinkthere's 2 things that influence the way I look at application ofcodes to building design and one is you know I was only thevolunteer fire service for 7 years you know in between Pennsylvaniaand what I did not in Prince George's County Maryland so you know?Yeah I kind of know what a fire feels like um that was part of itand then when you're at some of these fire investigation scenes youknow like I said I was at Dupont Plaza where 97 people died andyou're you're walking through these areas where you know where thebodies were a couple of days prior. Um, or orridium plaza wherewe've got the 3 firefighter fatalities and it's just like you knowhow you know how how on earth do we do? We get to these places. SoI think that those things kind of sear some you know memories orthe way I'm going to approach things that you know in. And again ineither 1 of those fires right? The the role of the Nfkinvestigation is to is not necessarily It's not necessarily focusedon cause and origin ah someone else is going to determine that thenfk report is okay, regardless of how it started what what is itthat allowed this fire event. To to get to the point it did it andthat's where the code piece comes in so I think between myexperience you even though it was short lived in the volunteer fireservice and then on the fire investigations to see the actualimpacts. It's like you know, look there there there. There are noshortcuts in this business right.
13:25.97
robert solomon
Oftentimes remember we do have thesethings or we do have these types of fires there. There is ashortcut or in other cases. It's simply the ongoing inspectiontesting and maintenance um is not is not followed through right? Soit kind of falls on the building owner.
13:44.23
robert solomon
So The codes can make that foolproofto an extent but right we still have that the human element thatcan you know that that kind of comes into play and you know I thinkespecially in the assembly occupancies right? That's that that'sthat tough area because you do have to rely on. Folks like crowdmanagers and even like some of the safety or usher staff to helpyou with that because no matter what you put in the code people aregoing to figure out a way to defeat it. We. We just had 1 came inon the weekend about about. About the height height height of aguardrail and design of a guardrail at an assembly facility and youknow the inspector said when somebody could climb on that andclimbing that and it's like of course they can right? They can youknow people people can always figure out how to how to climb overthose things right? so. That that's kind of where that that humanelement comes in and I think that's the that's other piece I try tolook at like you know the office building versus residential versusthe assembly and I I I Keep those fairly compartmented I think interms of how I'm going to look at. How to apply the life safetycode or the ibc to those to those occupancies and to you know tomake sure we we have. We have good explanations when somebody isquestioning why they have to do it or how they have to do it sothat you know that? ah all that stuff sits in the back heresomewhere at it.
15:12.22
robert solomon
You know I can I can pull it outwhen I need it. So.
15:15.38
firecodetech
Yeah I think that is the difficultpart and the mark of you know, somebody who can speak withconfidence about a lot of fire and life safety is that nuance andthe explaining of the justification. Um, because you know likeyou're saying.
15:22.76
robert solomon
Be. I.
15:32.84
firecodetech
Ah, you're you're going to getpushback in your career from ah ah, code official or so or somebodyand you need to understand that direction or why that piece of codeis there and what is a reasonable bound for the kind of life safetythat we're Providing. Ah, in the context of prescriptive code. Soyou you have to have that understanding or else you're going to getthrown for a loop. It's guaranteed. Um.
15:52.94
robert solomon
Yeah.
15:59.29
robert solomon
Yeah, yeah for sure for sure and Iwas just say that when what I left out ofpa you know where I am nowat Sls Consulting you know that that's that's part of that's partof my role there right? You know we we get we get a situation and.Maybe we're trying to. We're doing a performance-based design or'relooking at a potential code equivalency or or we got somebodyquestioning. You know what? whys have to be done that way andprobably not probably 9 times out of 10 I can I can tell them whybecause I guess it shows I'm old but like. I was probably therewhen the committee made the change or I worked with that committeelong enough that I knew the history of of why that thing was in thecode since 1930 or 1940 or whatever. So um, you know that's that'sthe other piece I think that I can bring is there still is somesome importance to know. To know the historical perspective aboutabout how the requirement got there is it based on a researchreport is it based on a fire is it based on some other you knowtragic event or tragedy or or something else that went wrong. Sothose are you know that's that's one of the. Ah things I help mycolleagues with now at a ls as well. So.
17:10.86
firecodetech
Yeah, and that's a great questionsomething I had planned to ask you later in the interview but thisseems like a good interjection point is you know if and there mightbe no good answer to this other than you need just more experienceand more time in the code cycles. But how. Does somebody who'strying to like absorb as much of this intent and subtext asPossible. Do you have any piece of advice for a young professionalor somebody who's trying to gain. Ah, Expertise or proficiency andsome piece of some code or standard you know are do you have anytips for somebody in that kind of situation.
17:57.60
robert solomon
Yeah, yeah, yes I think I think thatthe two things I try to encourage people to do I I do I teach thisone undergrad class on a wpi. It's only offered once a year andit's what I tell the students this. But maybe an old-timersexpression but you know that the class is an introduction to fireprotection engineering and it's it's that milew wide inch deepright? They get hit with everything from Ibc Nfk one a 1 sprinklersstandpipes fire alarm systems and they they get ah that exposure.But one of the things I tell them one is you know is wherever theyend up working is is to make sure that they they can identify agood mentor right? and I think that the mentorship is somethingthat organizations are paying more attention to right? We we payattention to that and s I'll ask with the with the new. Ah,students the new employees the new graduates nfpa I think did avery good job with that. So finding a good mentor is is importantto to kind of shadow them and you know and and follow them and andto understand right. You know I've been doing this for forty plusyears and I you know I still don't know everything right I learnedI learned stuff from from the 25 year olds I work with so so sothat that learning thing never stops. So so one is to get a goodmentor I think in terms of if if they can.
19:26.99
robert solomon
Do it and they can carve out thetime and they'll get support from their organization or from theircompany is to look at the professional development programs offeredby nfpa right? The nfpa programs give you give you a great a greatah a great introduction those concepts right like the life safetycode seminar or the sprinkler seminar or the fire alarm seminarthose are going to give you kind of the the jumping off point andthen then you kind of go to that you know that next level then thenyou go look at the courses. Maybe that. American Fire SprinklerAssociation or national fire sprinkler association. The coursesthey offer on sprinkler design stamp pipe design on on fire pumpdesign and understanding on the inspection testing and maintenanceprotocols and and then you go to? Ah, ah. Automatic fire alarmassociation a faa for their courses on fire alarm design again.Which really you know those organizations now I'll take you to thatnext level to those deep dives. So so those are those are kind ofthe ah the roots I think I think those are some. Places I would Iwould point folks to that are just getting just getting involved inthe business.
20:40.68
firecodetech
Yeah that's a great point finding amentor finding a community and then you know, understanding yourcode and standard base with nfpa and some of those onlineeducational courses. You know I taking a couple of those Idefinitely. Super recommend I took ah several for 13 and 72 theywere really really high quality I've never seen a course like thatin the industry that even comes close and then ah yeah, look goingdrilling down to the technology specificc.
21:12.66
robert solomon
Great.
21:18.73
firecodetech
Ah, aaa and nfsa and a Fsa. Um, ifyou need more explicit criteria and you know they have books theyhave technical guides and things so that's great tips Robert Iappreciate that? um.
21:30.85
robert solomon
Yeah, okay, good.
21:38.43
firecodetech
Ah, wanted to kind of go back tothat design experience. You mentioned a little bit and you know itcould be at your role now for Sls or during your time at nfpa. Butwhat is an ah example of a project that you're involved in thatyou're.
21:40.13
robert solomon
Just.
21:57.83
firecodetech
Um, proud of or that kind of giveslisteners an idea of occupancy wise or technology wise somethingthat has been a focus for you.
22:07.12
robert solomon
Yeah, so so I think I think the theone that um, still stands out for me personally. Um when I was atNfpa this is the change that came into the life safety code in the2012 edition around this notion of what's referred to as culturechange and I remember in early 2008? Um I I headed up the ah nfkbuilding and life safety group for a long time. And I was contactedby this organization called the pioneer network and they said ohwe're having this conference in April and we're looking forsomebody to come to speak about this nfk life safety code. That allof the hospitals and nursing homes are required to comply withbecause of the federal regulations I'm like oh yeah, you know I cando that I said you know it was in Dc and I said I'll bring the thewashington dcrep you know you know you know? Ah I'll co-presentwith her. And I said you know I said you know can you send meinformation a bit more about what you're looking for and what yourorganization is doing and um I get I get like this white paper andI'm looking at it I'm going like I'm I'm reading. Ah what you youdon't put kitchens.
23:25.16
robert solomon
Community kitchens in a nursing homeyou you would put fireplaces in a nursing home. Ah, they they haveall this stuff and it was this group that had been working on thisfor 10 years and what was stopping them was the life safetycode.
23:39.95
robert solomon
So my initial reaction is like thisis like crazy What do you mean? this is this makes absolutely nosense. So um, so i' got through the white paper then ah you know acouple months later we're we're at the ah like a three dayconference I think in Dc and I'm I'm talking to all these advocatesfor this. And these people were super passionate and by the time Ileft that conference I'm thinking like we have to figure out how wecan change the life safety code to allow these things to happen.Um, and and I I kind of look back. You know some of the um. Therewere 1 or 2 nursing home fires I hadipheral involvement in and youknow in the us we used to design nursing homes almost slightlybetter than we designed a prison right? Double loaded corridorswith concrete block walls and um, you know, just like a dull drabplace for people to you know. Spend their last months or years orwhatever living. So this whole culture change initiative was tomake this more into a home like environment and if you're going tocall it a nursing home then you need to figure out how to you knowhow to how to how to make that design fit a little bit better. Sothe other part of me thought boy you know in 30 or 40 years if Ihaven't been a nursing home I want to be in one of these likereally cool looking. Nice comfortable places rather than what Ienvision nursing homes typically being so so we had.
25:09.39
robert solomon
Worked with the pioneer network andthen we worked with ah um, with benefactor from the rothschildfoundation and those 2 organizations took the lead. They put someresearch money into nfpa and the research foundation. To help usco-sponsor we did two health care summits around this conceptaround this notion to introduce it. Um, there was buyingimmediately from the technical committee on health care occupanciesin the life safety code. And everybody went to work probably late2008 Eight two thousand early 2009 to get those changes in thetwenty twelve code and that is one of the main reasons that Cmsmoved to adopt the 2012 code kind of as quickly as they did itstill takes time. But. As quickly as they did because the code nowintroduced these culture change initiatives. So when I look back onthings I did at Fpa that that one I think that one was interestingbecause one it it opened my mind to look at things differently tolook at the nursing home environment differently? um. It's apositive change for society and I think it's one of those codechanges. It wasn't done because of a tragedy or a fire. It was aproactive thing and I think that's one of the things that I've I'veseen nfpa and I've seen Icc ah you know I think I think doing morechanges like that being more.
26:36.89
robert solomon
Proactive to make adjustments towhat society wants rather than oh now we had this fire. We had thisearthquake. We have to go make a change. So I think the codeorganizations are much better and that that for me is I think theone the 1 thing at nfpa that um I think I'm still most proud ofand. I was just glad to see how that all worked out you know andand now you know this is a this is a standard design. No 1questions about the community kitchen in the nursing home or thefireplace or the the more bright open areas. Um, so that that'sthat's the one that. That that sticks with me the most I think ofof everything I've done. Okay.
27:18.19
firecodetech
That's awesome. Cool to see the thefire and life safety dovetail with improving life quality forpeople and making positive change and I think that that is a bigpart of the reason why a lot of people love fire and life safety isthere.
27:27.80
robert solomon
In your.
27:35.84
firecodetech
Ah, the social implications of itand the protections and you know making a difference in yourcommunity. So that's really cool to hear about thatrobert.
27:44.46
robert solomon
Yeah, yeah, and as I saying now youknow at Sls um, we you know one of the things that we are. We'restarting to get asked about you know are some of these alternativematerials around sustainability and you know debt 0 energy right?Ah so we have we have the obviously the mass timber stuff that. Ah,groups like Icc and the fire protection research foundation did allthat work all that effort over about a 4 year period to get thosechanges in the 2021 edition of the ibc. Um, that's you know, partlybeing pushed by sustainability initiatives. But. Now we we alsohave like other materials coming on the market and one of thethings that we we look at at Sls is we have a project right nowwhere it's a um, it's it's an alternative material. That has veryfriendly environmental properties. It has it has a low carbonfootprint. But it's not you know when I pick up the book right?Now. It's not in the book. So we got. We're figuring out you knowwhat what? What are the steps. What's the pathway to get it in thebook or maybe to at least get it. Um.
28:58.24
robert solomon
Approved under some alternativemeans and methods initially and then and kind of see where it goesfrom there. So so that's other I think another role that's uniquefor for fps that people are coming up with new ideas. Newtechnologies new concepts right? The whole energy storage system.Ah, is another one of those that do we need it? Yes, ah, can we doit safely? Yes, um, just always go perfectly. No, but it's it'slike all this right? The the. Battery manufacturers are trying tofigure out. You know what? what are the alternatives to Lithium Ionbatteries what's a safer type battery that gives you the sameefficiencies and the same outputs. So. It's this never ending swirlof advancements in technology which is you know you know whichwhich I which I like right? it's. It's exciting. It keeps youengaged and it it keeps keeps me interested in the business.So.
29:55.78
firecodetech
Yeah, definitely it always makes itinteresting. That's one of the most alluring parts about theindustry is the variety variety is a spice of life and fire andlife safety has no end to the variety and complexity that you candive into and yeah, that's a definitely.
30:09.79
robert solomon
Um, great.
30:14.89
firecodetech
Ah, from like a schooling it was inschool I had no clue that you know there were fire protectionengineers that specified in products and how to get a specificproduct fm approved or Ul listed or you know what that processlooked like going through the different testing agenciesand.
30:32.84
robert solomon
P.
30:34.79
firecodetech
Significant time and cost associatedwith that process and how if you don't have somebody who knows whatthey're doing that. It's just basically a black box and it's likehard to crack that code and so I mean I think it's It's reallyinteresting as ah, just ah.
30:46.76
robert solomon
Good.
30:53.77
firecodetech
Way to do work. But yeah, that's avery cool process and another great topic you pressed on wasLithium Ion batteries and a man what a hot topic in the industryright now people trying to figure out how to protect them. You knowthey're everywhere so you know.
30:56.19
robert solomon
And.
31:09.99
robert solomon
C.
31:11.89
firecodetech
What does that look like separationof battery arrays. Ah different protection technologies. Ah, that'sa great topic.
31:21.73
robert solomon
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is and and Ithink you know that's one um I think we we brought some attentionon that at nfk back in 2014 it was ironically it was it was a guyat my church and he was ah um, he lived in Massachusetts but he'sworking with this company. Ah, and um. Ah, in Seattle Washington hewould like he would travel out there almost every week and you knowhaving like coffee coffee time after church he's he's told me aboutthis battery thing I'm like you know I'm like what what what isthis so after about six months I said can you come in and do alunch and learn for our technical staff on this so I had brad comein and he told us about it and like said that was twenty fourteenand we were just starting to hear a little bit more about this andthen all of a sudden you know he's explaining like what the usesare and this is before this is really before the. You knowtechnology really started to ramp up. So so as far back as 24 timesI just like you know I wouldn' have done anything about ess until acouple years later had I not you know had this conversation withyou know, 1 of my fellow church members. So it's just it's it'sweird how some of these things kind of. Ah, kind of transpire butyou know that that got Npa looking more closely at it. Someresearch worked and then creation of nf p Eight fifty five and youknow everybody's paralleling with the requirements in nfpa one andthe ifc and.
32:51.15
robert solomon
You know, trying to figure out howall those pieces fit and something you hit on right? it's that umit's that that that dance right? between well here's what the codedoes. Well here's what the standard does. Well here's what the theul or fm product standard does for the testing and. It is you knowthose pieces just don't those pieces just don't happen. There's alot of lot of careful coordination. Um and cooperation betweenthose organizations to you know to make sure everybody gets theright test protocols and procedures. So we can end up with youknow. Good documents like nfpa eight fifty five or the requirementsend up in the fire codes or the building codes or I heard last weekI haven't verified it yet. Um, there's something in apparently inthe Massachusetts stretch energy code provision that I think ittakes effect july first. Ah, so someone told me that they thoughtthey heard there's something in there about mandatory use of ess incertain types of buildings if you know if the local jurisdictionadopts the stretch code. So I have to do some homework on that toto verify that. But. But yeah, you're right? It's you know that thestuff is everywhere and there's ah, there's no end insight.
34:08.85
firecodetech
Yeah, another good point. Ah youknow that emphasizes your statement of its everywhere issustainability which you mentioned and how that is gettingever-increasing focus in fire and life safety which is pushingpeople to. You know, consider solar arrays and and battery storagefor the ups for those solar arrays and so it kind of just feeds offof itself in this push forward and so it's interesting to one ofthe issues I wanted to. Focus on because I've seen it as a throughline and your career is emerging technologies and kind of how do welook at them and address them as these things pop up or asTechnologies die like we've seen recently with some of the foamproducts out there. Um, and the legislation kind of removing thosetechnologies from the conversation or modifying them and having newproducts in their place. But ah yeah I think that's a great topicI'd love to hear from you about um how you see a like a frameworkfor. Taking a look at how these things change.
35:27.60
robert solomon
Yeah, so so I think I you know thoseare other examples I think of of changes driven by society. So mymy first exposure to that is whenever the us epa and other. Ah.Their counterparts other countries started the phase out of thehallons. AhCfc gases back in the 1980 S so one of my formercolleagues and nfpa casey grant um he he was he was he was. He wasvery much in the middle of that. Um, ah in his role atNfpa.
36:00.74
robert solomon
And that was kind of like you knowhere's this halon 13 ah one when I worked at nav fact you know andanything that was data or tracking or telementary orcommunications. There was a haon 13 or 1 system in it. Um I shouldknow if it right? but you know. Be in those rooms where we would dothe discharge tests right? So you know and I think back then likeyou know it was. You didn't even think twice about it. So so all ofa sudden There's this Ah ah, there's this movement to get rid of itback in like I said I think that started in 1980 1991 maybe but1989 that's kind of whenever I think that was here the Montrealprotocol and like all the signatories said you know we're going toban it by you know whatever date. So now of a sudden everybody likeyou said everybody's scrambling. We have this great agent. It'svery effective. Um, it doesn't leave any residue. It doesn't leavea mess but it you know it destroys the ozone layer. So I you know II went on a trip to China with some other nfpa folks and ul folksum to talk to their and their government agencies about.Alternatives to halon right? So we're talking about that before thereplacement chemicals are there so we're talking about these earlyconcepts you know not early like this like automatic sprinklersystems but early concepts like water mist. So.
37:28.32
robert solomon
Shortly after that trip then npastarts down the road to develop nfpa seven fifty water mist ismaybe ah, an alternative agent but then the the other producerswere looking at alternative. Clean, agent gas extinguishing. Ah.Features or characteristics that that then was my foray into thislike oh boy, you know there's other stuff we have to consider. Ofcourse we're going to put the fire out but we also have to look atother implications you look at energy efficiency. So. You know nowwe're putting different materials on the facades of the buildingsto manage you know, ah more efficient cooling in the summer monthsand more efficient heating in the winter months and oh yeah, by theway, there's you know, ah, an inch or two inches of some kind ofpoly material. Um, sandwiched between the Panels. So you know yousee like okay, um, that's a societal response for energy stuff andthen how do we safely get that material and then you seedevelopment initial development of the old standard. Ah the olduniform building code standard on this. Morphed into nfpa twoeighty five so there's another example of of where of where thosepieces really connect and I think now when you look atsustainability you know I think a lot of the focus is really goingto be on the materials right? The the big dog right now it wasthe.
38:59.43
robert solomon
Creation of the of the mass timberrequirements in the code that allow us to go to I think 18 storiesnow for certain occupancies. Um, if you told me ten years ago we'dhave code provisions allowed wood for ten stories I would have saidyeah, no way next? ah. But it's it's that whole thing it's likeokay, right your your initial fpe reacts is like it's what itburns. It's bad and it's like oh it's what it's heavy timber. Umyou can it burn? Yes, but it has unique characteristics like thecharring to create the insulation and and again I look back. My youknow. Volunteer fire department days I said very rural area Iremember going to barn fires and like you know the siding would begone but those big you know 10 by 10 beams would they would justsmolder for days and they were still structurally sound and so thatwas like my connection to like. Oh yeah, that stuff really ispretty durable when it comes to fire. So it's it's it's things likethat. But my personal opinion as I started to say my proe opinionis it's going to really now be on the materialials. You know? Um,if I have I guess the literature I read right? You know to. Produceconcrete. It's very high intensity and it's you know you know it'sa c o 2 issue and things like that or production of steel or thesupply chain like I can you know I can make the steel but you knownow am am I bringing the steel from.
40:32.22
robert solomon
Ah, foreign country. Well how muchenergy does that take and you know how does that affect supplychain. So I think a lot of effort's going to really be onalternative materials for building construction. You mentioned thepfas issue with with a triple f right same thing we have that andpretty much every. Type one Aircraft hanger in the us whether it'smilitary or civilian or commercial hangar. But that's that's whereamerican technology and an effort comes in the the manufacturers ofthe a triple Fc like ah, yeah, you know this I see where this isgoing my product won't be able to be sold after some period of timeor states are going to regulate are going to regulate it out of useI better come up with an alternative so it it it puts that bonus orburden back on. Those manufacturers to come up with the next thingand they did right that you know they they came up with the ah theflooring free phone. So the where there's there. There's always away to figure it out is is is what I've learned if anything overyou know 40 years in this business. So.
41:44.37
firecodetech
Oh yeah, definitely it's remarkablehow fast that they've spun up those new foam solutions with eventhough they're remarkably different with their viscosities and howmuch they had to alter their.
41:55.47
robert solomon
But.
42:00.18
firecodetech
Inductors and all the associatedequipment and still. It's like we have listed products coming outfor those things. So it's It's pretty remarkable. How just itchanges and people figure it out. Um.
42:10.80
robert solomon
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly yeah yeah,you know I mean a micro version of that it wasn't so much theenvironmental thing but if you recall and I got to say like coupleyears ago it's probably at least fifteen years ago nowmaybe
42:18.23
firecodetech
This.
42:29.20
robert solomon
12 years um whenever we had the banon antifreze and sprinkler systems right? You know Nfpa took a veryyou know hard stance on that and you know the um you know thecommittee kind of you know, kind of put use of antifreeze on theback shelf like you can't use it because of a couple of eventsthat.
42:47.85
robert solomon
Associates was made aware of so whathappened you know the the manufacturers you know, figure out how tomake an antifreeze that's not combustible even in a hundred percentconcentrated form but you know so so you know there's a case whereum. The antifreeze. Actually you know made the fire potentiallyworse and that's then hey you know the fire sprinkler system'spurpose is to make the fire go away not to enhance it. But there'sanother one of those circumstances where you know where themanufacturers figured out a way to. Come up with a anon-combustible interfreze concentrate.
43:28.75
firecodetech
Yeah I think that's a great examplebecause ah, you know at the early part of my career we were I wasworking for a suppression contractor and we were ripping thosesystems out of places and then now I'm designing systems smallsystems for you know that.
43:35.85
robert solomon
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
43:46.24
firecodetech
Spaces like little garages or atticspaces that those systems fit perfectly and now I'm getting toinstall those systems So that's a great point on how technology andmanufacturing can find a way and that innovation piece is prettycool.
44:01.80
robert solomon
Yeah, definitely definitely.Yeah.
44:05.18
firecodetech
So I Saw that recently that you werea part of a section in the nfpa handbook about smart technologiesand how that um impacts or affects fire and life safety. I'd loveto hear about that if you wouldn't mind speaking aboutit.
44:23.26
robert solomon
Yeah, sure. So yeah, that's that'sah, that's a new chapter in the new edit of the handbook the twentyfirst edition of the handbook that came out recently. So mycollaborat on that is gentleman named Ken Boyce from other writerslaboratories uow and ah. i' bet ket over the years at the U FireCouncil meetings so when I was on the council and then one of mylast presentations at Nfpa was in November of 19 and 1919 of 2019ah, where the the research foundation ran a 2 wo-day symposium onum, ah, kind of electrical data needs and I presented kind oflooking at that from the perspective of of bias or theinternational standards organization. My last three or four yearsat Fpa I chaired the us tag for an Iso committee IsoTC268 whichdealt with smart and sustainable communities. So a lot of what thathad to deal with it had to deal with kind of the measures. That youknow jurisdictions whether it's city a county a state. It could bethe whole country. Um or subdivision know a township or a townWhatever some of the measures they could do to look at theirsustainability kind of provisions and you know one of the thingsthat are.
45:47.98
robert solomon
Committees had worked on. We lookedat some of the metrics about about what you would measure. But wealso looked at the ways that you would measure it and that involvedextensive use of smart technologies right? you know sensors whetherit's a camera or it's something embedded in the sidewalk orembedded in the street to. Look at pedestrian traffic vehicletraffic. Ah you know to to to collect data about you know aboutabout bus routes about garbage collection times. So so that thatwas kind of the the piece I I talked about at that event and Kenwas a. Ah, presented on some of that from the ul perspective so wewere asked to kind of put something together around smarttechnologies I think the initial idea was to focus it on smartfirefighting and there's a whole ah fire protection researchfoundation report on that which is awesome. But we said you knowlook this is you know this isn't just smart firefighting right?This is this is something that affects my opinion every aspect ofthe built environment right? So everything from the time thedeveloper says I want to build a whatever. Right? And then theymight have ah they might have a small internal design team is thisthat design team starts firing up their revt model all of a suddennow I have like that first piece of smart technology I've gotsomething that's going to get translated.
47:21.72
robert solomon
To the other consultants. Um, it'sprobably going to get translated as part of the as built drawingsfor the building and then those things are going to start toconnect to maybe oh elevator. Oh here here's here's all my elevatorspecs over here here's the manufacturers criteria for the actualelevators that I have installed. So. All of a sudden you you havethis? ah this ecosystem that is connected from obviously the designstage all the way through building lifecycle. So I think our ourour chapter kind of work to connect those pieces together how youknow ah kind of kind of how it all works. Everything that we do nowthere's there's some aspect right? I mean what you know you knowyou and I are using smart technology today even though we're usingyou know computers or cameras or whatever right? Those those kindof fit into that because we're connected to the internet somewhereand and I think that's really any. Any device or component thatkind of can get online like that and go to the cloud somewhere thatthat kind of falls into this broad category of of smart technology.So we we kind of laid out the the basics of that and talked aboutlike you know you know. Where this appears I mean it appears intractors and combines it appears in the medical community and themedical devices. Um it. It appears in traffic lights and trafficsignals. So so it's everywhere. it's around us um I don't thinkit's going away I think if anything right? There's going to be moreof it. So.
48:59.27
robert solomon
So we tried to set that broadlandscape about all the places that smart technology shows up andappears and you know some people say well my privacy my privacy myprivacy. Um I think. I think the days of privacy are I I don't saythat they're gone but you know like we you know we we we all haveto decide if we're going to carry a smartphone and if we carry asmartphone you know we're going to lose some of that privacy. Wecan control. Maybe what what app is tracking us but we we have tomake those decisions. So so what we try to do is is lay out thatbroad landscape and then and then kind of bring it back to. Okay,when we look at the built environment in codes and standards. Youknow what? what are? what are some places that this is working inright now and and you look in n f p 25 and and nfpa twenty. Forexample, you see some things that we now can monitor remotely willlet you will let that count towards your Nfpa 25 itm inspection ormaybe a weekly test instead of having a person to physically gothere open the door. And watch the pump run for 20 minutes and thengo back. So so you know there there are ways that we can improvethose efficiencies but there's also the performance criteria thecodes had ah the standards. How to add it right in Nfk Twenty fiveand thirteen and nfk twenty as examples and those are.
50:30.16
robert solomon
Those are the the 3 I think we ah wetalk about the most you know within the new chapter. Um, so youknow that that that was the purpose of that um I I hope that I hopewe achieve that there I mean there's so much you could write. Andwhat's interesting is you know what people don't realize thosehandbooks take a long time to produce and nfpa did ah I think didan awesome job with it. Um, but that content it's content that Kenand I wrote probably back in most of it. January February of 2021and you look at how many things have changed since then right itthose.
51:02.95
firecodetech
Wow. Well.
51:05.67
robert solomon
And those 2 years right so we wehad. We had a chance to add a few more things a bit later in theyear but you know there's a point where okay, you know it's goinginto production. You can only make editorial changes you you knowyou can't add the new substance. But I said that whole area of ahof smart systems. You know there's there's something. New. It seemslike almost every day that you learn about or read about or or kindof the next thing that that's around the corner. So.
51:31.96
firecodetech
Yeah, yeah, it's It's so ubiquitousthat you know you get into. We do a lot of military work and youknow they don't want smart devices in there because it's acybersecurity threat and it's like trying to find ah a pump orsomething a domestic water pump or something that's notalready.
51:39.25
robert solomon
Right.
51:49.50
firecodetech
Have bluetooth capabilities. It'slike they're having to scramble to find something in the range ofthe manufacturers. They're used to. That's not smart capable ordisabled in some ways. So it's ah fascinating how ubiquitous it is.But.
51:57.73
robert solomon
At right.
52:04.14
robert solomon
Right.
52:06.21
firecodetech
Robert I want to be mindful of yourtime and I've really enjoyed the conversation and lots of greattopics and we didn't get to all the questions I had for you. But umI just really appreciate. It was a great conversation and thanksfor coming on the show.
52:13.69
robert solomon
Just go.
52:22.65
robert solomon
All right? Well again, thank youvery much and I said it's it's great for me to see young folks likeyou. Ah you know getting in this business and that was one of yourquestions right? We we need more and you know I think if I've got aminute here. 1 of the questions I want to make sure we hit on. Youknow he said what.
52:33.38
firecodetech
Sure.
52:38.32
robert solomon
But what are the other things toattract more people and I think one of the right I think Sfpe isdoing a great job I think the individual universities do a greatjob of that outreach one of the things that that I see is ah apotentially untapped group of ah of engineers. It's the 24 schoolsthat have architectural engineering programs and I I know there'sone at Wpi. That's where most of my students come in um to my classfrom there's 1 at Oklahoma state for example, but I think I thinkthat I think. Architectural engineers are kind of like fps becauselike they're learning a little bit about every building system andfeature and they they already have a pretty good background onunderstanding electrical systems and and how the architect worksand the structural piece. Ah and the plumbing pieces.So.
53:13.95
firecodetech
M.
53:29.43
robert solomon
I think I think that's ah, that'smaybe an untapped group that we all could be looking at to to maybego talk to the architectural engineering students at these youknow, handful of schools that offer those programs to you know, getthem interested and then have them. You know come to work and thenyou know part time. You know, go get your masters at Cal Paulley orMaryland or Wpi or I don't even know who all who all has them nowof the Us. But those are some things to I think that's a good placeto look for for new new folks.
53:59.50
firecodetech
That's a great point I appreciateyou touching on that because I see just nonstop on Linkedin Jobposting job posting job posting people are looking for new hiresand I think that you know as a industry we have to be better atoutreach going to Ashray and.
54:08.99
robert solomon
Kind of.
54:17.24
firecodetech
Going to these other professionalSocieties. You know going and speaking with other college degreeplans like the architectural engineering and putting the thought offire protection and the promise of what a great field. It is and inthose young minds. So I Appreciate that point we got to getcreative and um. Let ah get the word out about how great thisprofession is so that's a great point to end on.
54:38.44
robert solomon
Yeah, great. Okay, well yeah, yeah,thank you very much and yeah, um, best of luck with the podcast whoand you and you you your their fulltime job so it sounds soundslike sounds like you've had a you've had a good niche here as well.So enjoy.
54:54.12
firecodetech
Um, yeah, oh thank you verymuch.